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Victor,
I agree - more pixels = more resolution. BUT ...
What we are also talking about in a discussion of 4:2:2 vs 3:1:1 is how
accurately each pixel describes the image in front of the camera.
In 4:2:2 there is a greater COLOR resolution in each pixel. More
subtlety. And that is the "key" (pun intended) to keying. Ignore number
of pixels on a line for the time being. That is picture size. Think
about the quality of the description that each pixel gives you when it
comes time to do a key.
Do you follow me there?
Jef
Victor Wolansky wrote:
Well what we can tell from the numbers is that seems that the HDCAM
and VARICAM have the same horizontal color information, 480 pixels,
but HDCAM have more luma information that VARICAM, 1440.
What I can tell by my little research now is that if you can not
digitize HDCAM SR, and want something better than HDCAM or VARICAM,
then you can connect you HD-SDI output of the camera to a Deck like a
D5, D6, or HDCAM-SR in which case I will have a full sampled 1920:960:960
That is my understanding but I could not find yet information to
confirm this. Any one knows?
I don’t think we are comparing apples and oranges, it is an absolute
thing, more pixels.. more information.. the keyer will have more info
to do his job. If we compare format to format, VARICAM have more color
info per pixel, but less total information per line, what can be the
bad thing about having more horizontal luma information, I think that
can’t be bad.
Just my opinion.. I can be completely wrong…
Victor Wolansky
DS VFX Artist
WEBsite <http://www.e3post.com/>
Demo Reel <http://www.e3post.com/reels/victorreel.html>
815 Slaters Lane
Alexandria. VA.
443-797-3507
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf
Of swaffordt(at)bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:42 AM
To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject: RE: Varicam or HD
Jeff... great information, thanks... btw, your reel rocks!
TBONE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of
Jef Huey
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:26 AM
To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject: Re: Varicam or HD
My gut instinct about this analysis is that it has its own flaws.
It seems to be one of comparing apple and oranges.
Alot of the numbers are base on totals per line. I think that is not
valid when it comes to blue screen work. What matters there is color
resolution of each Pixel, not the total for a line. The keyer must make
decisions about what is "Green" and what is not. If color of each
pixel is sampled at a higher resolution (4:2:2), then you will be
better off. That is why 4:4:4 RGB keys are so desirable.
At least that is how I am reading it and I definitely do NOT have a math
head.
Where did this info come from - Sony maybe ;) ?
Jef
Victor Wolansky wrote:
*I found this searching on this topic, I think is very useful
information to share..*
* *
* *
*Riddle#2: Does the Varicam have more Color Space than the F900?
Is the Varicam better for green and blue screen matting?*
What I'm discovering is a bit of an eye opener in terms of Color Space
and Image Sampling between the Sony CineAlta and the Panasonic Varicam.
Have you heard the common misconception, prevalent across the
industry, that the Varicam records a 4:2:2 color space to tape? The
argument goes like this ...... while the Varicam has less resolution
in luma, it has more resolution in chroma compared to the Sony F900
CineAlta. So this means the colors are sharper, therefore the over all
image will tend to look relatively sharper as well, despite there
being less pixels in total compared to the F900. Consequently, this
helps the Varicam produce an image that looks just as sharp as the
F900. While the images are indeed amazingly similar, this reasoning is
bogus.
And if this were true, then the Varicam might turn out to be the
better tool for doing green and blue screen work. On the face of
things, it might seem the Varicam will do a better job with pulling
mattes with double the color resolution. After all you are keying to a
color, and if the colors are sharper, then it should work better -
right? Again, this reasoning is bogus. The real story is a little more
involved, as I will try to explain.
It is amazing how entrenched the misconception is that the Varicam has
approximately double the color space of the F900. But in a sense this
is true ..... it all depends on how you look at it! Lets start by
looking at precisely how each HD camcorder system processes and
records its images to tape. But in so doing, we can't lose sight of
the fact that the starting point for each camcorder is different. The
Sony CineAlta has approximately twice the number of pixels per CCD
compared to the Panasonic Varicam (2.2 megapixels for the F900 verses
1 million pixels for the Varicam).
The first step in both cases is pre-filtering in luma. Both systems
use the same reduction factor, namely 1.33^* (recurring). The F900
starts with 1920 pixels per line, and filters down to 1440 in luma
(1920 divided by 1.33 = 1440). The Varicam starts with 1280 pixels per
line, and filters down to 960 in luma (1280 divided by 1.33 = 960).
The original "1920", and the original "1280", are defined by their
respective format specifications.
Next, chroma is sampled at 3:1:1 in the case of the Sony camcorder,
and at 4:2:2 in the case of the Varicam camcorder. So the CineAlta has
1440 in luma and (1440/3)= 480 in chroma, while the Varicam has 960 in
luma and (960/2) = 480 in chroma. Note that both systems now have
precisely the same number of pixels per line, namely 480, representing
color information!!!
Just to be clear about the mathematics I used here, the divisors 3 and
2 respectively, come from the how each camcorder subsamples its color
space. The CineAlta is 3:1:1, so it subsamples its chroma channels by
a factor of 3 in relation to its luma channel. Specifically, it
samples chroma at 1/3 (one third) that of the luma channel. So this is
why I divided by 3. The luma is sampled at 1440 /3 = 480 which is the
chroma sampling. Similarly, the Varicam is 4:2:2, so it subsamples its
chroma channels by a factor of 2 in relation to its luma channel.
Specifically, it samples chroma at 1/2 (one half) that of the luma
channel. So this is why I divided by 2. The luma is sampled at 960 /2
= 480 which is the chroma sampling.
While both systems (coincidentally) have equal chroma resolution, the
Sony HDCAM has 50% more luma resolution. This is not surprising
considering it started out with twice the number of pixels in the
first place.
Another way to look at this is as follows:
HDCAM = 1440 in luma, and (1440 /3) = *480* in chroma = 1440:480:480 =
3:1:1
HD Varicam = 960 in luma, and (960 /2) = *480* in chroma = 960:480:480
= 4:2:2
In an absolute sense, the CineAlta and the Varicam have identical
color space i.e. *480* pixels per line!!!
But relatively speaking, the Varicam samples a slightly lower
resolution image at a slightly higher rate for its colors.
"A-little-more-of-a-little-less" means there is no net gain in terms
of color space compared to the CineAlta. However, the CineAlta has a
comparative advantage in terms of resolution in luma (or the black and
white component of the image) by a factor of a half i.e. 50% more
resolution in luma. Or 1440 pixels compared to 960 pixels
(mathematically speaking: 960 x 50% = 480, then 480 + 960 = 1440) (or
960 x 150% = 1440) (or 1440/150% = 960) etc.
Sony's 3:1:1 exactly equals Panasonic's 4:2:2 in terms of color space
in an absolute sense. But in respect to the Varicam's own inherent
line resolution, it has twice the rate of color sampling compared to
the CineAlta. This leads to the conundrum that it is true to say the
CineAlta and the Varicam have identical color space, but at the same
time, it is also true to say the Varicam has twice the color space of
the CineAlta. This is of course is contradictory.
The truth of the matter can only be resolved when you look at the
total number of pixels per line that are sampled for color information.
**3:1:1 color sampling of 50% more line resolution = 4:2:2 color
sampling of 50% less line resolution.**
To complete the story, both camcorders sample at 10 bit, pre-filter,
compress, and record to tape at 8 bit. In other words, both systems
work in a very similar way, and indeed, they both produce very similar
looking images.
Many people believe that the Varicam performs better for green and
blue screen matting processes, compared to the Sony F900. I think the
reality is that they are about the same in their blue and green-screen
matting capabilities.
Just as an aside, the Sony HDCAM (D-11) compression scheme is based
upon a 1440 x 1080 image format and 3:1:1 chroma subsampling, as
described above. Downsampling is required upon compression, and
upsampling is required upon decompression. The downsampling inherent
in HDCAM compression of 1080i or 1080p means that luma sample aspect
ratio is effectively 4/3 (and chroma subsampling is equivalent to
4:1:1) relative to the original 1920x1080 image array. So luma is
multiplied by 4/3 or 1.33^* (recurring) i.e. 1440 multiplied by 1.33^*
= 1920. Hence it is 3:1:1 color space in respect to 1440 x 1080, but
really only 4:1:1 color space in respect to the originally captured
1920 x 1080, and also the 1920 x 1080 produced after decompression of
the signal and upsampling. In some ways it is hokus pokus with numbers
to say HDCAM is 3:1:1, as 4:1:1 is perhaps more accurate in its
practical application. Same with the Varicam, it is 4:2:2 color space
in respect to 960 x 720. This leaves us with the somewhat awkward
ratio of 4:1.5:1.5, which is the color space in respect to the
originally captured 1280 x 720, and also the 1280 x 720 produced after
decompression of the signal and upsampling.
Victor Wolansky
DS VFX Artist
WEBsite <http://www.e3post.com/>
Demo Reel <http://www.e3post.com/reels/victorreel.html>
815 Slaters Lane
Alexandria. VA.
443-797-3507
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