Re: AW: RE : AW: The stone age DS

[Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony(at)hdheaven.co.uk>]

On that subject.....

If anyone wants to meet up on Sat my cellphone is...

+44 7739 047 417

Flying out Sat am, flying back Sun am

Cheers,
Tone :)


At 10:01 11/08/2005, you wrote:

Hi Tone,
 
in looking forward to see some users / owners ;-) at the IBC this year -
 
to make big rumble about the future of DS ..... even if it won´t help - maybe we get some attention from
 
the Autodesk stand .... ;-) - for some awsome cross-grade-promos ......
 
greetings from sunny austria
 
christian
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [ mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM]Im Auftrag von Tony Quinsee-Jover
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. August 2005 10:30
An: DS(at)Softimage.COM
Betreff: Re: RE : AW: The stone age DS

Hi Igor,

Being in a much smaller but essentially similar environment and being similarly a long term DS evangelist I'll be very interested to see where your conclusions lead you.

I'm only at IBC for one day this year (Saturday) but I'll be looking very closely at the Autodesk stand for the first time this visit. I'll also be looking at how well I can interface extras such as Monet, Mokey and Toxik with DS, because applications such as those might well satisfy our requirements for the next few years (our market in The Midlands is hardly cutting edge).  That'll put off having to make any decision about DS for now.

I expect Avid will have a stand.  I expect many top end suits will be present.  I expect they'll continue to say nothing.  I expect DS will be hidden around the corner like at NAB. I expect Phony Nitris will be shown in some form or other <yawn>.  I don't expect to see anything of much interest at all on that stand.  Native HDV on Xpress?  Oh, whoopdeedo!

Regards,
Tone :)


At 17:15 10/08/2005, you wrote:

We could never work on a FCP set-up no matter how tricked out it may be. We work in supervised and unsupervised sessions and when the clients come in, the room is full of people who all talk at the same time and want to see instant changes. In a ?normal? session we might have 2-3 clients, art director, writer, producer, account exec., account supervisor  ... etc. Going back and forth between apps just to do one thing would be unacceptable. However ... Avid?s lack of interest in developing DS as a high-end tool is very worrisome since it may slow our growth in the high-end world of commercial post production. As much of a DS evangelist as I am, I would switch to whatever software/hardware will provide me with the toolset and features I need to ensure the progress of my career.

I.


On 8/10/05 12:01 PM, "Chasteen, Howard" <Howard.Chasteen(at)fotf.org> wrote:

Be nice. I said I agree;

But the FCP or Adrenaline for a lower price have less capability straight out of the box. But  they still can be built into an adequate system. With FCP or even Adrenaline you do have to use lots of other tools to do many of the functions that DS handles easily and the overall quality standard, [compression, built in tools (except 3D ;-) etc ]is lower. Things like the Mac equivalent to After Effects are not cheap. And those add ins add up.

FCP certainly gets the job done in 95% of the cases and puts food on the table at a lower price point. We all have seen enough major movies done with it to know it is a  competitor. Condemning a competitor is a VERY bad strategy in business. I am not saying that.

 

I am not trying to defend DS. I am saying consider all the costs when assembling any editing/compositing system. I grow VERY tired of being asked to help out folks that say

"I have state of the art editing facilities"  when what they have is a room with computer and storage at or near the edit console and cables strung all around, poor quality wiring, inadequate storage, monitors from Best Buy etc etc.

My guess is that MANY DS and Symphony owners already have FCP in their facilities. If Avid continues to grow and develop DS then it will remain popular but if they sideline it then there is not much reason to spend more dough on it.

So if you want to argue about how FCP is as good as a loaded DS go ahead. That is not a valid argument unless the gig you have ONLY needs the things that FCP and other less expensive systems have included. We could kick this horse until we both have numb feet and there are always more exceptions to consider. It is the specific demands of a gig that are important determining factors.

Howard

From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [ mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM ] On Behalf Of michael thomas

Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:29 AM

To: DS(at)Softimage.COM

Subject: Re: RE : AW: The stone age DS

Even if you have 50k into your FCP system its still less than half the price.

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From:  Chasteen, Howard < mailto:Howard.Chasteen(at)fotf.org > 

 

To: DS(at)Softimage.COM

 

Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:22  AM

 

Subject: RE: RE : AW: The stone age  DS

 

 

I agree. There are similar costs with all systems but for those  who bought Avid turnkey their systems included many of the items that have to  be considered separately for FCP...or even and Adrenaline.

 

 

I just do not want folks running around thinking they can have a  top quality FCP system for $999. That is not accurate or even close. Things  that must be included are:

Software

The G5 or whatever platform

Memory

Storage

LOTS of expensive plugins

Monitoring

Audio

QC

 

 

You could also add in:

Consolure

Racks and enclosures

Audio interfacing gear

 

 

etc etc

 

 

It adds up to a lot more than the much bandied-about prices for  FCP systems we hear off the tops of peoples heads.

 

 

Howard

 

 

From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM  [ mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM ] On Behalf Of Scott  Witthaus

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:41 AM

To:  DS(at)Softimage.COM

Subject: Re: RE : AW: The stone age  DS

 

 

But Howard, to be fair, you need to add that 'good cost' to the  Ds/Symph/MCA set up as well.

 

On Aug 9, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Chasteen, Howard wrote:

Scott said, referring to  Avid,

 

 

> 'By God, we're mediocre and overpriced and that's our  future!'<

 

 

ROFLMAO

 

 

;-))

 

 

 

PS:

 

In all fairness you must include  the full hardware required to do a suite as nice as a DS suite when you  consider the price of FCP. I know you can FCP on a laptop but that is pretty  miserable compared to a suite.

 

It is not just $1000 for the FCP  software. They do NOT give away G5s! And quality monitors, waveforms  [perhaps], audio gear etc,etc really matter and even if we built a FCP HD  suite we figure we would spend at least $20,000-$30,000 to "do  it right"

 

 

Of course since we have much of  the infrastructure already as many DS owners do, then we could just switch  it all over to an FCP system with a new Mac and keep going. 

 

 

Howard

 

From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [ mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Scott Witthaus

 

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:08 AM

 

To: DS(at)Softimage.COM

 

Subject: Re: RE : AW: The stone age DS

 

OK, this thread brings me up from the lurk... a DS user since v1 - v5,  beta tester, poster boy, etc.,...I have been arguing this topic on various  Avid boards.

 

Avid is a company that is facing extraordinary challenges. For the  first time in its corporate history, the Avid has real competition at all  levels of its product line from Final Cut Pro. The company's product line is  confusing and overlaps, multiple platform development takes away focus from  feature development, and of course the ancient and whacked out price  structure that the company continues to charge. Oh, and the little fact that  30% of the value of the company disappeared in one day about 3 weeks ago.  Yep, extraordinary challenges.

 

Final Cut over DS? Final Cut over Symphony? Final Cut over Adrenaline?  The fact of the matter is a $999 piece of software can do a large percentage  of what a $80,000 Symphony can do. Add a few more options to the system and  it starts cutting into some of the things DS does. It was almost comical  when an Avid rep sent me a bid for an adrenaline that was about 3 times  higher than a full blown FCP suite and tried to tell me that MCA was Avid's  answer for FCP. Talk about a switch!

 

For many smaller shops (like mine and Ricks) these are HUGE decisions,  and we weigh the cost versus features/power versus speed issue very  carefully. But when the costs start to get so far apart, you start saying  'well, I can live without that' or 'there is another shop in town I can get  that process done at when the rare occasion arises'. Luckily I have  Thoughtstream Media (Woody Sherman) next door with that shiny new DS  Nitris!! Most of my finishing workflow goes thru that DS as it is the best  tool for the job.

 

Avid has yet to wake up to this. "But we are Avid...c'mon people,  Avid!" is the marketing strategy now, it seems. Yeah, so...If any of you  were at the NAB pre-show get together from Avid at the Hard Rock, the  announcement of a $90,000 Symphony Nitris box went over like a lead balloon.  Equal to the mood Lucas Wilson and I found when we wondered in to the DS  dinner at Yolis. Avid is stuck in the middle, and really has no easy  answers. The mid-range of this business is the worst place to be. No volume,  no big markup. ouch. DS is the product that could be the easiest to consider  'hi-end' but the company will not focus or truly invest in it. Get rid of DS  and you are telling the market 'by god, we're mediocre and overpriced and  thats our future!'. Hopefully there is a hybrid out there that might satisfy  both Symph and DS groups...but what do you charge and is it far enough ahead  of FCPHD for people like Rick and I to consider it. And FCP keeps getting  better and better at $999...

 

IMHO Avid is at a crossroad where some very fundamental changes need to  be made. The world has changed around them so fast, and they have yet to  make a move. Maybe that news market IS the place to be!

 

my humble 2 cents.

 

On Aug 9, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Gregory, Ryan wrote:

Don?t forget, smoke only has 1 undo. Now that?s  crazy!

 

On 8/9/05 10:36 AM, "Serge Verreault"  <sverreault(at)s29post.com> wrote:

BTW did you know that on a  Flame or Smoke, there?s no Softness on the wipes!!!!! (No  kidding!)

 

Ok they do have many other  powerful features, but not this one?.

 

( Ok I?m willing to trade  softness on wipes for 3D compositing!!!)

 

-----Message d'origine-----

 

De :  owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [ mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM ] De la part de  Rune Holm

 

Envoyé : August  9, 2005 4:02 AM

 

À :  DS(at)Softimage.COM

 

Objet : SV: AW:  The stone age DS

 

Good for you Rick. I am a facility owner and  operator myself and for me going FCP would be the same as closing down  my buisness. Different clients different needs. It would be nice with a  Boxster though.

 

I think you are missing the point when you  say:

 

"in my mind, that is what Flame, AE, Shake etc is  for."

 

Many DS users have been competing with flame and  doing so very well for a long time but when the fx side of the swiss  army knife isn't getting any sharper release after release it starts to  become a little difficult.

 

Good luck whatever you decide to do. 

 

Rune

 

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----

 

Fra:  owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [ mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM ] På vegne af  Dsderanged(at)aol.com

 

Sendt: 8. august  2005 20:38

 

Til:  DS(at)Softimage.COM

 

Emne: Re: AW: The  stone age DS

 

Sorry to be late on this thread but I gotta  chime in.

 

As a early purchaser ( Ver 1.0 / Single Stream )  of DS, I liked to say that when I first saw the DS, " I fell in love  with editing all over again."  Like many here, I was a former  On-line > AVID guy and at the time, the DS combined all of the  tools we wanted.  I purchased my system as a Softimage product  and was ready to break-away from the AVID line for good.  But  then they bought Softimage.  There were rumors back then that  they were gonna "kill" the product because it competed with MC and  Symphony, but quite the contrary, they improved the product and it  became their flagship.  I had mixed reactions back then and still  do today.  On one level, I felt vindicated that the system I  chose to build my business turned out to be a smart decision, but  frustrated when I saw the "bastardization" and "dilution" of the DS  becoming more like MC.

 

After following this thread for awhile, I  conclude that some of you are not happy where they perceive the future  of DS is headed.  Many of you want more "high end" effects but in  my mind, that is what Flame, AE, Shake etc is for.  ( I am sure  to get totally flamed by that comment I know. )   

 

Remember, the biggest selling feature /  advantage to DS was being like " A Swiss Army Knife" and some of you  expect " A Chain Saw".  There is bound to be a plateau for ANY  product to slow advancement and features.  That is where new  products come in to compete.

 

For me, my biggest complaint is simply cost.   The cost to upgrade my 3.01 system to current was in the $80K  range.  That is simply unacceptable to me.  I am still doing  100% standard def work and FORCED to buy a HD box.  Don't need it  ( right now ).  Rather than add new features, I would simply like  to see the cost come down.

 

Although not as elegant as a DS, there are  numerous 3rd party programs that coupled with FCP can and do compete  with the DS, AT A FRACTION of the cost.  Sure, a few more steps  in and out.

 

Right now, in lieu of upgrading my DS, I am  considering replacing it with a 2nd full blown FCP suite for my  growing business, and a brand new Boxster S for me. ( Roughly the same  dough. )  And my clients will be as happy as an alligator at a  lakeside pet parade.  They just love the Apple Cinema  displays.

 

So before I get trashed, I respectfully remind  you that I am a facility owner/operator and I put my money where my  mouth is.  My .02¢

 

Rick at nakedeye 

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Greybox, LLC

 

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www.greybox.cc

 

Scott Witthaus

 

Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor

 

Greybox, LLC

 

Richmond, VA USA

 

www.greybox.cc