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Maybe then Avid should be targeting FCP users not
MC editors. It sure seems they are alot more willing to try something new. Maybe
FCP to DS courses are in order.
Michael Forrest
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:09
AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: RE : AW:
The stone age DS
y'know what is amusing about FCP making in-roads on Avid? For
years, a big objection from Media Composer users was that the DS interface was
too different to learn. So Avid spends time and money 'dumbing down' the DS
interface to be more Media Composer like. Here comes FCP (which some say
reminds them more of the earlier DS look), and you don't hear MC editors
complaining like that FCP is too different to learn...just an interesting
point and ironic.
sw
On Aug 11, 2005, at 11:56 AM, Hollis,
Mark (NBC Universal) wrote:
I
have been reviled on this list as "too much of a Mac fanboy" and have
offered the occasional comment on FCP. I initially bought version 2 of the
software and, though I don't have the latest version, I can do HD on my Mac
G4 (it has a 1GHz processor upgrade and 1.5G of system RAM).
I
don't.
I
am working very hard on DS right now and FCP seems too much like work. When
I get home after a long commute I want to read a book and relax, not edit.
But
here are a few comments about
FCP:
-
It does not necessarily play well with others (you need Automatic Duck to
get lists in and out of it).
-
It does not have a manufacturer-certified BOB (like the Adrenaline, Nitris
and Mojo units). This allows
the software company to blame the hardware company and vice-versa.
-
It does not have a manufacturer-certified hard disk array (but Apple does
make a HD array and recommends
it for use with their X-Serves and mini-towers).
-
It is dependent on the CPU for rendering -- the BOB is not a complete assist
(like the Nitris). The Apple
switch
to Intel may create a lot of chaos
here.
-
You are truly on your own here. You cannot purchase a support agreement for
the software like you can
from Avid. It's up to you to determine the worth of Avid's support
agreements versus Apple's non-support.
-
Purchasing FCP and the equipment you need to do normal definition TV
(including everything Howard likes
to rant about needing) is under $20,000 (USD) HD is more.
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Kevin Johnson
[mailto:kjohnson(at)coolfiremedia.com]
Sent:
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:41 AM
To:
DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject:
RE: RE : AW: The stone age DS
Howard,
Our Adrenaline Editor dumped his suite and built a top of the line FCP Hi
Def System with HUGE storage tons of plug-ins, all the current apple
editing, compositing, audio, etc. The whole suite cost about $29,000
and he says it kicks the Adrenaline suites ass. He swears by
it. But....still, it's no DS...
KJ
-----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Chasteen, Howard
Sent:
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:22 AM
To:
DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject:
RE: RE : AW: The stone age DS
I
agree. There are similar costs with all systems but for those who bought
Avid turnkey their systems included many of the items that have to be
considered separately for FCP...or even and Adrenaline.
I
just do not want folks running around thinking they can have a top quality
FCP system for $999. That is not accurate or even close. Things that must
be included are:
Software
The
G5 or whatever platform
Memory
Storage
LOTS
of expensive plugins
Monitoring
Audio
QC
You
could also add in:
Consolure
Racks
and enclosures
Audio
interfacing gear
etc
etc
It
adds up to a lot more than the much bandied-about prices for FCP systems
we hear off the tops of peoples heads.
Howard
From:
owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Scott Witthaus
Sent:
Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:41 AM
To:
DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject:
Re: RE : AW: The stone age DS
But
Howard, to be fair, you need to add that 'good cost' to the Ds/Symph/MCA
set up as well.
On
Aug 9, 2005, at 12:29 PM, Chasteen, Howard wrote:
Scott
said, referring to Avid,
>'By
God, we're mediocre and overpriced and that's our future!'<
ROFLMAO
;-))
PS:
In
all fairness you must include the full hardware required to do a suite
as nice as a DS suite when you consider the price of FCP. I know you can
FCP on a laptop but that is pretty miserable compared to a suite.
It
is not just $1000 for the FCP software. They do NOT give away G5s! And
quality monitors, waveforms [perhaps], audio gear etc,etc really matter
and even if we built a FCP HD suite we figure we would spend at least
$20,000-$30,000 to "do it right"
Of
course since we have much of the infrastructure already as many DS
owners do, then we could just switch it all over to an FCP system with a
new Mac and keep going.
Howard
From:
owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM]
On Behalf Of Scott Witthaus
Sent:
Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:08 AM
To:
DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject:
Re: RE : AW: The stone age DS
OK,
this thread brings me up from the lurk... a DS user since v1 - v5, beta
tester, poster boy, etc.,...I have been arguing this topic on various
Avid boards.
Avid
is a company that is facing extraordinary challenges. For the first time
in its corporate history, the Avid has real competition at all levels of
its product line from Final Cut Pro. The company's product line is
confusing and overlaps, multiple platform development takes away focus
from feature development, and of course the ancient and whacked out
price structure that the company continues to charge. Oh, and the little
fact that 30% of the value of the company disappeared in one day about 3
weeks ago. Yep, extraordinary challenges.
Final
Cut over DS? Final Cut over Symphony? Final Cut over Adrenaline? The
fact of the matter is a $999 piece of software can do a large percentage
of what a $80,000 Symphony can do. Add a few more options to the system
and it starts cutting into some of the things DS does. It was almost
comical when an Avid rep sent me a bid for an adrenaline that was about
3 times higher than a full blown FCP suite and tried to tell me that MCA
was Avid's answer for FCP. Talk about a switch!
For
many smaller shops (like mine and Ricks) these are HUGE decisions, and
we weigh the cost versus features/power versus speed issue very
carefully. But when the costs start to get so far apart, you start
saying 'well, I can live without that' or 'there is another shop in town
I can get that process done at when the rare occasion arises'. Luckily I
have Thoughtstream Media (Woody Sherman) next door with that shiny new
DS Nitris!! Most of my finishing workflow goes thru that DS as it is the
best tool for the job.
Avid
has yet to wake up to this. "But we are Avid...c'mon people, Avid!" is
the marketing strategy now, it seems. Yeah, so...If any of you were at
the NAB pre-show get together from Avid at the Hard Rock, the
announcement of a $90,000 Symphony Nitris box went over like a lead
balloon. Equal to the mood Lucas Wilson and I found when we wondered in
to the DS dinner at Yolis. Avid is stuck in the middle, and really has
no easy answers. The mid-range of this business is the worst place to
be. No volume, no big markup. ouch. DS is the product that could be the
easiest to consider 'hi-end' but the company will not focus or truly
invest in it. Get rid of DS and you are telling the market 'by god,
we're mediocre and overpriced and thats our future!'. Hopefully there is
a hybrid out there that might satisfy both Symph and DS groups...but
what do you charge and is it far enough ahead of FCPHD for people like
Rick and I to consider it. And FCP keeps getting better and better at
$999...
IMHO
Avid is at a crossroad where some very fundamental changes need to be
made. The world has changed around them so fast, and they have yet to
make a move. Maybe that news market IS the place to be!
my
humble 2 cents.
On
Aug 9, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Gregory, Ryan wrote:
Don't
forget, smoke only has 1 undo. Now that's crazy!
On
8/9/05 10:36 AM, "Serge Verreault" <sverreault(at)s29post.com>
wrote:
BTW
did you know that on a Flame or Smoke, there's no Softness on the
wipes!!!!! (No kidding!)
Ok
they do have many other powerful features, but not this one....
(
Ok I'm willing to trade softness on wipes for 3D compositing!!!)
-----Message
d'origine-----
De
:
owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM
[mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM]
De la part de Rune Holm
Envoyé
:
August 9, 2005 4:02 AM
À
:
DS(at)Softimage.COM
Objet
:
SV: AW: The stone age DS
Good
for you Rick. I am a facility owner and operator myself and for me
going FCP would be the same as closing down my buisness. Different
clients different needs. It would be nice with a Boxster though.
I
think you are missing the point when you say:
"in
my mind, that is what Flame, AE, Shake etc is for."
Many
DS users have been competing with flame and doing so very well for a
long time but when the fx side of the swiss army knife isn't getting
any sharper release after release it starts to become a little
difficult.
Good
luck whatever you decide to do.
Rune
-----Oprindelig
meddelelse-----
Fra:
owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM
[mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM]På
vegne af Dsderanged(at)aol.com
Sendt:
8. august 2005 20:38
Til:
DS(at)Softimage.COM
Emne:
Re: AW: The stone age DS
Sorry
to be late on this thread but I gotta chime in.
As
a early purchaser ( Ver 1.0 / Single Stream ) of DS, I liked to
say that when I first saw the DS, " I fell in love with editing
all over again." Like many here, I was a former On-line >
AVID guy and at the time, the DS combined all of the tools we
wanted. I purchased my system as a Softimage product and was
ready to break-away from the AVID line for good. But then
they bought Softimage. There were rumors back then that they
were gonna "kill" the product because it competed with MC and
Symphony, but quite the contrary, they improved the product and it
became their flagship. I had mixed reactions back then and
still do today. On one level, I felt vindicated that the
system I chose to build my business turned out to be a smart
decision, but frustrated when I saw the "bastardization" and
"dilution" of the DS becoming more like MC.
After
following this thread for awhile, I conclude that some of you are
not happy where they perceive the future of DS is headed.
Many of you want more "high end" effects but in my mind,
that is what Flame, AE, Shake etc is for. ( I am sure to get
totally flamed by that comment I know. )
Remember,
the biggest selling feature / advantage to DS was being like " A
Swiss Army Knife" and some of you expect " A Chain Saw".
There is bound to be a plateau for ANY product to slow
advancement and features. That is where new products come in
to compete.
For
me, my biggest complaint is simply cost. The cost to upgrade
my 3.01 system to current was in the $80K range. That is
simply unacceptable to me. I am still doing 100% standard
def work and FORCED to buy a HD box. Don't need it ( right
now ). Rather than add new features, I would simply like to
see the cost come down.
Although
not as elegant as a DS, there are numerous 3rd party programs that
coupled with FCP can and do compete with the DS, AT A FRACTION of
the cost. Sure, a few more steps in and out.
Right
now, in lieu of upgrading my DS, I am considering replacing it
with a 2nd full blown FCP suite for my growing business, and a
brand new Boxster S for me. ( Roughly the same dough. ) And
my clients will be as happy as an alligator at a lakeside pet
parade. They just love the Apple Cinema displays.
So
before I get trashed, I respectfully remind you that I am a
facility owner/operator and I put my money where my mouth is.
My .02¢
Rick
at nakedeye
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Scott
Witthaus
Senior
Editor/Post Production Supervisor
Greybox,
LLC
Richmond,
VA USA
www.greybox.cc
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