Clients usually care little about the correct technical info regarding post
specifics, as they usually don't have a deep technical knowledge of formats.
Adding more technical lingo to make the format description correct from an
engineering perspective will only add confusion to a topic that is already
confusing for most clients. Most even believe that they are working in
10bit when in Symphony.
In town here, as far as clients are concerned, it's "1080i" for 1080i/59.94,
"24P" for 1080/23.98, "true 24" for 1080/24, and "720P" for 720P/59.94. If
a client works a lot on the US and/or Europe, then I agree with you that
they should take extra steps to clarify resolutions, formats and framerates.
Other than that, we unfortunately will continue to reinforce the technically
abbreviated terms because that's what clients know.
-Gus
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of
Mathew Sherman
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 8:44 AM
To: 'DS(at)Softimage.COM'
Subject: RE: 1080i format question
"...except when it doesn't."
Hilarious. No wonder people get confused. What is so wrong with just saying
exactly what things are? So in Europe, saying 1080i is also going to mean
1080i/59.94 FIELDS when in fact the tape is 50 FIELDS? See the problem? I
agree there is a large difference between true interlaced and segmented and
I agree that technically interlaced would imply separately captured (like
individual moments in time) images. But my noting that something is 1080i is
only to differentiate it from 720P which is why I also specify the exact
frame or field rate after the slash. Then there is no room for confusion.
My original reply was to harp on the lack of frame/field specification, not
so much the i/PsF issue.
Mathew.
-----Original Message-----
From: david friedman [mailto:gevalt1(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 10:39 AM
To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject: Re: 1080i format question
well, if you ask ME 24pSf is interlaced, but if you ask a sony guy
they'll tell you that it's progressive, but segmented. hence their
designation.
while i appreciate your striving for technical accuracy, you're kinda
spitting into the wind. convention has taken over.
1080i is gonna mean 1080i/59.94 FIELDS
24p is gonna mean 1080p/23.976 FRAMES
except when it doesn't.
david friedman
On Monday, August 29, 2005, at 09:19 AM, Mathew Sherman wrote:
> David, 24P is not the whole story AGAIN! Saying 24P tells you nothing.
> Saying 1080p/24, now that's the whole story. Now I know it's a 1080P
> format
> (1920x1080 progressive frames and this does not yet exist on tape) and
> there
> are 24 of them per second captured. That is different than saying
> 1080/24PsF. Sony HDCAM is 1080/24PsF and, my friend, it is still
> technically
> 1080i. It is still stored as two separate fields on the tape. Sure,
> they can
> be recombined into one progressive frame and they are both captured in
> the
> same moment in time, which is what Rich is explaining. And, all my
> friends,
> this is now all sounding a bit silly. My main comment from my first
> post is
> not to confuse 1080i as absolutely meaning 59.94 fields. Cause
> couldn't it
> be 50i? That's all. I know in North America it's becoming convention,
> typically American to only think everyone is doing what they are.
> (Sorry,
> flame me if you don't agree, I'm American too so....) But if you are in
> international post house and deal with European HD formats such as 25P
> and
> 50i then it's important to specify the difference. That's all.
>
> Matt Sherman.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david friedman [mailto:gevalt1(at)gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:24 PM
> To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
> Subject: Re: 1080i format question
>
> ok, there IS a lot of confusion about HD even among professionals.
> imagine what the CONSUMERS are going through.
>
> 24P is NOT 1080i. if anything you should refer to it as 1080P/24fps
> (or 23.98fps)
>
> now that isn't to be confused with those 24p dvc pro cameras that
> capture at 24 fps and add pulldown in the camera, because those tapes
> end up as 29.97fps NTSC
>
> david friedman
>
>
>
> On 8/28/05, tony(at)hdheaven.co.uk <tony(at)hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Surely the "i" at the end of 1080i means "Interlaced" doesn't it?
>> Which
>> would differentiate it, for instance from 1080PsF.
>>
>> In other words, 1080 specifies the line count, i means interlaced, and
>> then other information is requred to specify frame rate?
>>
>> So, 24P couldn't be called 1080i.
>>
>> Or have I completely misundertood something here?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tone :)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Mathew Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yet again I must remind everyone that saying "1080i" does not have
>>>> anything to do with frame rate. People are getting confused when
>>>> people tell them "we need 1080i" that it somehow precludes them from
>>>> working at 24PsF. But the only thing truly that 1080i means (in this
>>>> case I am referring to the HDNet spec) is that they do not want 720P
>>>> originals. Sony HDCAM is a 1080i format regardless of what frame
>>>> rate
>>>> you are using. 24P is also 1080i and that is exactly what HDNet
>>>> means.
>>>> They don't like DVCPRO-HD since it's low bit rate (100Mbps) and is a
>>>> 720P format (natively).
>>>>
>>>> In terms of what to do for a possible film-out well definitely
>>>> working
>>>> progressive will help the film look better, however these days there
>>>> are such good de-interlacing tools that I bet one would have a hard
>>>> time telling the difference between 59.94i (proper term) or
>>>> 23.976PsF
>>>> on the cinema screen once all is said and done, properly.
>>>>
>>> Sorry to disagree Matt but in the US 1080i has become synonymous with
>>> 59.94 fields. Mark Cuban was involved in a discussion on the Telecine
>>> Internet Group last year on this topic. He was quite adamant that the
>>> research they've done on viewer preferences were so strongly in
>>> favor of
>>> the higher frame rate that they chose to require that for delivery.
>>> I'm
>>> not surprised since Mark Cuban is so involved with sports
>>> broadcasting
>>> and the higher temporal resolution makes a difference. I happen to
>>> prefer 720p for sports for the same reason - disclaimer: I'm ex-ABC
>>> engineering.
>>> If you're planning a film out there is a big advantage to working in
>>> 24p
>>> (again, common usage in the US translates to 1080psf(at)23.97 - even for
>>> film jobs you'd need to specify true 24p if you didn't want
>>> 23.97psf!).
>>> Yes, there are de-interlace tools but it doesn't look the same and
>>> we've
>>> been through it on numerous projects.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard Torpey
>>> VP Engineering
>>> Rhinoceros/MultiVideo Group
>>> 50 East 42 Street
>>> New York, NY 10017
>>> (212) 986-1577
>>> (212) 986-3833 fax
>>> (212) 692-4465 direct
>>>
>>>
>>>
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