Re: DS and FCP

[Chris Smith <chris(at)sugarfilmproduction.com>]

We bought the DS a month or two ago simply because the FCP (with Shake/AE/Motion) workflow just doesn't work well.  They can have the round trip things and whatnot, but it's always a HUGE pain to do a complete project with. There are always some kind of issues whether it's pulldown, YUV to RGB conversion, etc.. When it comes to capturing or outputting, it seems that there is always some issue.  Don't get me started on conforming.  I had many embarrassing hours in front of clients a few months ago just trying to re capture my final transfer.

If you want a simple box to create offline edits to EDL or Duck over to DS then fine.  But I wouldn't call it anything remotely close to being a cheaper DS.

Chris Smith

Partner/Film Director

Sugar Film Production

3699 McKinney #222

Dallas 75204

214.655.2662

http://www.sugarfilmproduction.com

On Oct 31, 2005, at 2:57 PM, Scott Malkie wrote:

I've used FCP since version 1.0 and have done a good amount with it.  

When you combine it with the right hardware and software it has all the tools.  Add Shake, Motion/AE, Soundtrack, Blackmagic/AJA card, good scope, good monitor, Xserve RAID, etc and you'll have a great system - especially for the price point.  In the hands of the right person, it can do some really amazing stuff.

/rant

My biggest two issues with FCP are this:
1.  In my experience, it doesn't perform well "under pressure" - there are some days, some times, when it just needs to work, period.  The client is standing over you, the FedEx guy is waiting in the lobby, etc. etc.  FCP, especially compared to Avid products, has underwhelmed me in this area.   I definitely would not go so far as to call it 'finicky' or imply that it's unstable ... sometimes it's about how you handle it.  (The need to break long/complex sequences up in the DS is something that FCP has as well)  BUT, more often than not, FCP decides to be uncooperative at the worst possible time.   I also have to mention the incredible uselessness of Mac OS error messages, something that that OS has had for way too long.

2. My other gripe is not with the system itself, but with its perception and the perception/reality of a number of its operators.  So many schools have FCP labs these days that it is the first-and-only introduction to 'editing' that many college students get.  So they learn what all the buttons do, what all the menu options mean, and maybe cut a student film or two - and poof! when they graduate, they're Editors.  With a capital E.  And they act like it.   Now, I've got no issue with talented people being proud of their talents, no matter what their age or experience - but there is still very much a learning curve when it comes to the 'real world.'   My biggest gripe, and it may just be me, but when I hear "I know how to edit with Final Cut Pro", I really assume they mean not just technically how to do it, but creatively how to tell a story, and socially how to keep the client (no matter what type of client) happy while they work, how to prep deliverables like OMFs/EDLs,etc., how to just ... be an Editor.  Often times I'm disappointed by people who "know" Final Cut - but they don't "know" editing.  And I've heard that perception echoed a number of times.  Oh well. 

/end rant

All in all, however, it's a great program.  For the price point, if you put it together with the right hardware, software, and operator - it's a tremendous system.

Hope this helps,

Scott

On 10/31/05, paulingvarsson(at)mac.com <paulingvarsson(at)mac.com> wrote:

Hi Phil,

I recently bought an HD capable FCP system out of curiosity, mainly due
to my worries about DS and Avid in general.  I was very surprised to be
asked about the availability of the system almost immediately.  I've
already more than covered the cost of the purchase plus I now know how
to use FCP efficiently (but not as comfortably as I would use DS or MC
Symphony etc).

I don't know how MC proficient you are now but I would recommend a book
called 'FCP for Avid Editors' by Diana Weynand if you're thinking of
going down that road.

FCP is a beast not to be ignored - attach the right hardware (eg
scope/monitors/speakers) and it stands very well - I enjoy editing on
it it feels very natural.  You cannot expect to do everything within
FCP. Shake for effects and compositing, Motion and After Effects for
graphics etc.

FCP 5 now has a feature called 'round tripping' - eg you select a bunch
of clips on your timeline, right click and say - 'send to shake', you
then make your comp in shake, save, then switch to FCP - your clips
have now the appearance of one clip (just like a composite container)
that you can render within FCP.  The best bit is that you can then
select this clip and choose to modify the contents within shake.  This
to me is virtually exactly like the way Ds deals with composite
containers.  This round tripping works with Motion too.  Apparently due
to limitations of XML that is doing the leg work behind the scenes
freeze frames and speed effects get screwed up - this can be sorted by
replacing the speed clip with a rendered version of itself without the
speed settings.

FCP is not a realtime system.  In Avid land we all expect realtime to
mean 'at the quality to lay back to tape' - in FCP realtime means it
drops resolution and frames to maintain realtime playback.  This can be
advantageous if you are working on a multilayered seq to get the jist
of the timings of your layers.  You might get one layer of '3 way
colour correction' without many adjustments to play back at full res.

This brings me onto colour correction.  FCP fanatics will tell you that
you can do everything with about 8 different plugins - but I find it
painful to work like that.  But you can get good results, especially
when referring to a proper scope etc.  I am looking with particular
interest at a product called Final Touch HD from www.siliconcolor.com
(this works with FCP using XML therefore suffers the same limitations)
this looks great but although it says 'realtime' it is only for preview
- you still have to render 'new' media for FCP to link to.  It works
totally in 32bit and supports control surfaces for colour correction
which does interest me - i've never used these as I've always graded
with curves on Symphony or DS.

I'm really pleased that I spent the time and cash on FCP - i'm not
totally confident on it yet but for the jobs that I do it could be
perfect and i'm looking at this Final Touch and a Mackie MCU for mixing
audio.

One major downside at the moment is that the world of FCP seems to be
full of amateur grade thinking and client responsibility.  I've already
had to hire someone else's kit and then that person as an editor for a
job that I couldn't cover.  I did this with the understanding that my
kit would always have priority and the client was my client.  Sure
enough 2 weeks later I hear that that person had undercut me and my kit
- something I had discussed with them and was assured would not happen.
  Maybe this is just harsh business but i couldn't imagine this
happening in the Avid world where trust, reputation and relationships
gets you far.

Hope this helps, sure i'll bump into you soon.  PS FCP editor freelance
rates seem to be almost half that of DS :(

Paul



On 31 Oct 2005, at 17:33, phil gadd wrote:

> Has anyway had any experience in using FCP?
>
>
> www.philgadd-dseditor.tv
> phil(at)philgadd-dseditor.tv
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf
> Of John Heiser
> Sent: 31 October 2005 17:27
> To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
> Subject: RE: DS and FCP
>
> Agreed, Wes, and thanks for the clarification. Though I tried to gently
> pin the blame on DS, I should have also restated your product's
> reputation as a fine tool for passing projects around from app to app.
> I
> think everybody knows this sort of situation is not the fault of
> Automatic Duck.
>
> ____________________________
> John Heiser
> Avid DS Editor
> o2ideas
> Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On Behalf
> Of Wes Plate
> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:00 AM
> To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
> Subject: RE: DS and FCP
>
>
> On Mon Oct 31  7:55 , 'John Heiser' < johnh(at)o2ideas.com> sent:
>
>> But a very experienced editor sent me an FCP>Duck OMF last year which
> was,
>> in every sense, awful.
>
> DS definitely has OMF import problems, this is why our web site
> specifically singles out DS as unsupported.  We are hopeful
> that eventually DS might adopt standardized AAF 1.1 import, especially
> Edit Protocol, and maybe then things will improve.
>
>
> --
>
> Wes Plate
> Automatic Duck, Inc.
> http://www.automaticduck.com
>
>
>
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Paul Ingvarsson
Freelance Editor
Avid DS / Avid Symphony
+44 (0) 7768 016948

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