Re: 3:2 contract issue

[spencer <spencerhecox(at)sbcglobal.net>]

I can't remember the time when DS actually could pull the 3:2 out of 
that 'laboratory' clip and put it back together again without some sort 
of issue.
I even believe that 3:2 issues were brought up on this list  by a few 
in past years and no one seemed to really understand the issues. Maybe 
they didn't care. Maybe everyone just does "workarounds". I don't 
remember... so I do "workarounds".
I have noticed the 3:2 issues on version 7.0 systems 7.6 Equinox 
systems and on 7.6 training stations so far all versions deal with that 
'laboratory' clip  the same way. Basically I don't trust DS to do 3:2 
correctly... ever.
What I mean by all of this is:
Yes, DS will pull the 3:2 out. Yes, you can build your effect. And yes, 
you can put 3:2 back into the shot.
But to be sure that the new affected clip is frame/field accurate a lot 
of manual tweaks must be preformed to wrangle DS into putting the ABCD 
frame into their correct positions. Now if the clip's source if tape 
based then I have noticed that DS has less of these following issues. 
As or the 'laboratory' clip well I think I have seen what your seeing.

Try this: (I know you have probably done 3:2 work alot or you wouldn't 
have noticed the issue. I'm listing this out so those who are new or 
haven't seen the issues can try... maybe their DS are working and only 
the systems I work with are "buggy". NOTE: I'm also not in front of a 
DS and writing this from memory)

1. Place 'laboratory' clip on V1

2. Place a copy of 'laboratory' on V2. Be sure they line up.
(work only on the V2 clip so that you can deactivate and check it's 
frame/field accuracy after you have pulled the 3:2 out and put it back 
in. Also take note that the clip starts on a B frame)

3. Park the position indicator on the first of 2 split frames. (The 
frames near the end where the green goo is moving up the tube are easy 
to identify the split frames)

4. Select Clip. Then "Time Effects>>3:2 Contract."

5. DS will pull the 3:2 out of the 'laboratory' and pad the container 
with 1 red frame at the head. The clip will look shorter due to the 
fact that your now viewing the original 24fps footage
At this point DS is working correctly the red frame is a padded frame 
DS creates to recreate the missing A frame. Since the 'laboratory' clip 
comes from file there are no additional heads for DS to pull cadence 
from. if the clip had come from tape the it might show a frame from the 
heads or a media not available depending on your personal situation. 
Don't trim the red frame off... I imagine most people do thinking its a 
mistake. If this frame is trimmed at this stage then your cadence will 
not match later.

6. At this point you could do your work on the 3:2 contract container 
but I usually fix the 3:2 first and make sure that's working and lined 
up. then I can step back in and work on the clip after everything is 
lined up. So for now just place a DVE on the 3:2 Contract Container and 
leave it unaffected as a placeholder for a future effect.

7. Select 3:2 Contract Container. Then "Time Effects>>3:2 Expand."
(It doesn't matter where you park your position indicator. DS inserts 
Cadence baised on the first frame. Hence the 1 red frame.)

8. DS will reinsert 3:2 into your clip. You'll notice that it has gone 
back to being the exact same length as it was before. Seems good.
But here is where the inaccuracy starts. The first frame will still be 
red. Although this is a good thing for cadence, Your clip is now 1 
frame out from where you were before.
The 'laboratory' clip started on a B frame. But your clip starts with a 
red A frame. You'll need to trim or slip the footage to remove this red 
frame.

From here I will take the "Trimming" route and not the "Slipping". (The 
"Slipping" route seems to give the same frustrating results.)
9. Select the front Edit point and trim off the 1 red frame. Good now 
your clip starts with a B frame... but it's also now 1 frame short.

10. Drag the clip 1 frame to the left. Your clip will be in the right 
place and if you check the frame/fields they should line up with the 
shot underneath. But your still one frame short.

11. So select the end edit point and trim out the clip to match it's 
original length.
Here is where I really notice issues with DS.
You'll trim out the clip and at first you'll think it worked. If you 
look up at the ribbon you'll see that that 1 frame doesn't need to be 
processed. It's because DS is showing the frame for the clip on V1. Not 
the footage for V2.

12. Solo V2.
You'll see that DS doesn't show that 1 frame at the end. Why?
Because DS did pad the front of the 3:2 Contract Container with 1 red 
frame. But DS did not add 1 or more frames to the end to match. So your 
3:2 Contract Container is simply 1 or 2 frames short.

13. Step into the 3:2 Expand Container.

14. Trim the 3:2 Contract Container out by a frame or two. You'll see 
that the missing frame has simply been trimmed off by DS and any 
additional frame you trim out DS will pad as red frames. (also if you 
had done any animation work at step 6 like Roto you would have do 1 
more frame possibly 2. Not that that it is a hugh issue.
And don't forgot to turn on cropped curves for your effect(s) or your 
animation will be scaled out with the trim. In either case this is why 
I get the 3:2 part working first then go back and do the work when the 
frames/fields are all line up.)

15. Step up and back to the top timeline. Notice DS has NOT put that 1 
frame into the 3:2 Expand Container.

What I do from here varies on a machine to machine basis.
16. Step back into the 3:2 Expand Container and although you have 
already trimmed out the end of the 3:2 Contract Container try just 
re-trimming the edit out by 4 frames maybe 5. Maybe trim some frames 
off instead.

17. Step to the top timeline and view results.

18. Repeat Steps 16 and 17 until DS puts media into the last frame.

19. When DS does finally put that last frame in take a quick look at 
the first frame.
Alot of the time for me DS simply slipped the footage which has placed 
that 1 red frame back at the head of your 3:2 Expand Container clip.

20a. If this is so: repeat Steps 9 through 19 until DS puts the 
frames/fields in the correct place.
20b. If DS did put the frames/fields in the correct place then step 
into the 3:2 Expand Container and preform your work on the 3:2 Contract 
Container Clip.

Eventually DS will get it right and your frames/fields will be in the 
correct place.


Alot of work to keep your 3:2 frame/field accurate.
I show this "fix" in my 201 classes. 3:2 always fails and basically 
each student has to do steps 9-19 a few times before DS gets it right. 
I have them save once it's right and then continue on with the rest of 
the tutorial.

Maybe it will help some of you.

_spencer







On Thursday, Nov 17, 2005, at 14:26 America/Los_Angeles, Benoit 
Melancon wrote:

> Actually, this is the old "laboratory" clip provided with the DS 
> courseware, and it never gave me any trouble before....
>
> Here goes rebooting....
>
> Benoit
>
> Bill Admans wrote:
> > This sounds like you could be dealing with Advanced 2:3:3:2 cadence. 
> > DS
> > cannot correct that.
> > Cheers,
> > Bill Admans
> > Director Creative Editorial
> > FotoKem Film & Video
> > 2801 W Alameda Ave
> > Burbank CA 91505
> > Main +1 (818) 846-3101
> > Cell +1 (818) 391-3593
> > badmans(at)fotokem.com
> > www.fotokem.com
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM]On Behalf 
> > Of
> > Victor Wolansky
> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 2:04 PM
> > To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
> > Subject: RE: 3:2 contract issue
> > You sure the transfer was made at 24? Some time ago I had the problem 
> > and
> > was because the transfer was made at 25..
> > Victor Wolansky
> > DS VFX Artist
> > WEBsite
> > Demo Reel
> > 815 Slaters Lane
> > Alexandria. VA.
> > 443-797-3507
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On 
> > Behalf Of
> > Benoit Melancon
> > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:59 PM
> > To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
> > Subject: 3:2 contract issue
> > Hello DSers,
> > Can someone test the 3:2 contract for me in 7.6 qfe3?
> > I seem to run into problems, as one interlaced frame still persists
> > after applying the contract container (NTSC sequence, used on the 
> > first
> > frame of a mixed pair).
> > (Can't reboot right now, but will later)
> > Thanks in advance,
> > --
> > Benoit Melancon
> > Avid DS ACI/ACSR
> > www.nadcentre.com
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>
>
> Benoit Melancon
> Avid DS ACI/ACSR
>
> www.nadcentre.com
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