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However, the fact that you cannot place a 29.97 QT in a 23.98
timeline, apply 3:2 contract and end up with the right frames is
absurd to me. Let's say a client exports 29.97 quicktimes for the
mix, so they don't want to have to do another several hour export for
me, so they give me 29.97 QTs. Now I'm supposed to place those in a
29.97 timeline, apply the 3:2 contract, render them, export them
again, then import them again into a 23.98 timeline just to see if my
edits are correct. It can take a day and a half on a feature, and
then what if they make changes? Really, why hasn't the 24fps SD
offline to 23.98 HD (or data) online workflow been dealt with at all
in the last three revisions or so. If Avid expects to sell this as a
DI machine, but you can't check your conform in real-time, it seems a
little "ghetto" so to speak.
Brandon
On Nov 18, 2005, at 3:11 PM, Benoit Melancon wrote:
Boy did I ever open a can of worms....
As I stated in my original mail, the problem was not a missing
frame but rather the presence of a leftover field on one out of
five resulting contracted frames.
Capturing another, older version of the same Avid-distributed
Quicktime file apparently solved the problem, whereas recapturing
the current one didn't solve it for me, even when creating a new
clip for it.... It's as if the training material from Avid had
changed at one point.... Strange indeed.
I was almost hearing Fox Mulder telling me "You have seen the
leftover field on that clip with your own eyes. How many leftover
fields will it take before you believe it?".
Thanks to all who chipped in :-)
Benoit
Here's what is broken:
Apply 3:2 contract. Apply 3:2 Expand. Let's say you get the
resulting short
clip. So step into your 3:2 Expand and trim the tail of your 3:2
Contract.
Step back up to top timeline and notice the 3:2 Expand DOES NOT
REFLECT YOUR
TRIM. This is incorrect behavior, a bug as it were. If there's
media in the
container below for those frames DS should update the top timeline
as well.
This is repeatable behavior, more common in larger sequences but
reproducible 9 times of 10 on the machines I've worked on.
The 'random slipping of clips' is a result of the issues I
mentioned in my
last email, not random at all but annoying none the less. IMHO 3:2
Contract
should be modified so that it errs on the side of the extra frame,
rather
than the current 'too short' situation.
Of course that would take a developer...
-Todd
Union
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM [mailto:owner-ds(at)Softimage.COM] On
Behalf Of
spencer
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 21:17
To: DS(at)Softimage.COM
Subject: Re: 3:2 contract issue
First off I said that the 3:2 Contract works. And it works like
it should.
It's the 3:2 Expand that has issues. For DS math / frame
splitting reasons
that Todd highlighted.
Yes the 3:2 Contract works. Yes the 3:2 Expand works. Infact I
love that
we can do 3:2 on the timeline. It's a great feature.
But DS does do some frustrating things sometimes that require manual
tweaks. (mainly not updating the timeline/viewer and sometimes
slipping
footage when it wasn't asked to.) Frustrating and annoying for
students
who are learning about 3:2. It's hard for them to understand when
they are
doing something wrong or when DS is. With my example it's DS.
Like I said in my list "if the clip's source is tape based then I
have
noticed that DS has less of these following issues" for the very
reason
you mentioned... there is an A frame for DS to work with.
Try it with the 'laboratory' file. You say to always cut on the A
frame.
Sometimes that isn't possible. It requires the person that worked
on the
media before you to know about 3:2 to even know where the A frame
is. And
the 'laboratory' Clip was created without an A frame on purpose
to show
how DS pads that clip with a red frame. It's a great example for
showing
the issues. If you follow the steps I mentioned you most likely
will get
the same errors. If not... then count yourself lucky.
Also you said that "in which case it's just impossible to remove
3:2 from
such a clip and then replace it without losing a frame on the
begining
and/or end." It's not impossible... Thats the very issue I'm
mentioning...
It may seem impossible if everytime you create a 3:2 expand
container DS
doesn't update the containers end frame... leading you to believe
that the
shot cannot be corrected. It can after a while. But you need to
know that
it's just a quirk of the system.
I'm not trying to attack DS. I love the system. I was simply
putting up a
list that new people could follow and learn about to expect
within DS.
Maybe make their lives a little easier. Also to illustrate that
when they
see and issue maybe it hasn't been something they are doing
wrong... that
others get the same issues they do.
People expect that if they took the 3:2 out that DS will "on it's
own" put
the cadence and frames back in their exact places... and DS
doesn't do
this all the time. They need to understand what DS is doing and
how to fix
it.
And since version 7.0 (maybe earlier) I have never seen it work
on that
'laboratory' clip without manual tweaks. I could show you this
error on
over 12 systems and I could repeat it over and over and over
again. That
is far too many to simply trust that every 3:2 Expand DS does, goes
exactly back into perfect frame matching cadence. So I check
every 3:2.
Sometimes it works... sometimes it doesn't. But I fix it and I
move on.
Teach Man to fish
_spencer
On Thursday, Nov 17, 2005, at 20:02 America/Los_Angeles, Bob
Maple wrote:
Basically I don't trust DS to do 3:2 correctly... ever.
Well, all I can say is that I've never had DS NOT do 3:2 removal
correctly, ever. I've seen some other people complain of random
problems
but I have never been able to duplicate them or otherwise have
ever had
3:2 compress or expand not work as expected.
The trick is to cut your clip on an A frame at the head, always.
This might mean trimming the original clip head back which would
give you
a few extra frames of heads.. Then, either make sure the end of
your clip
ends on a whole frame, or just arbitrarily trim it out a couple
of frames
(like I do, because it's never bad to have a little more than not
enough!). I do all this usually by copying the original clip in
question
on a higher track in the same position, trimming out the head and
tail as
appropriate, and then contracting the copy.
When you then expand the contracted clip, the cadence should match
the old clip. Then you simply trim the ends back in to their
original
position if applicable.
With file based material, this obviously could be a problem if your
clip starts or ends on a mixed frame and you don't have any heads or
tails.. in which case it's just impossible to remove 3:2 from
such a clip
and then replace it without losing a frame on the begining and/or
end.
That said, I've never gotten any material via file that I've ever
had to
remove 3:2 from.. but perhaps others do this a lot.
| Bob Maple | bobm_at_burner_dot_com | [http] burner.com
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| I don't want the world, I just want your half.
| - They Might Be Giants
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Benoit Melancon
Avid DS ACI/ACSR
www.nadcentre.com
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