Re: If not DS...

[David Tecson <davet(at)edgeworx.com>]

Title: Re: If not DS...

One of the reasons we got DS in the first place was the price point. It sat in a nice place in between a tricked out FCP suite and a Smoke, and it held the promise of translating more better data from an Avid offline than a batch of EDLs (I believe Autodesk now supports OMF and XML).

We have a 2 FCP systems tricked out for finishing and they work just fine, thank you very much. I believe any disrespect for that solution is a combination of prejudice and lack of experience with the system. It’s true that an FCP system has several landmines but so does DS with its HAL errors, effect failures, timecode confusion, lost caches, bizarre media database, etc. I’m sure Smoke/Fire has a bunch of gotchas too. But you learn to avoid those issues over time.  Frankly, our DS screwed us royally on a job, FCP hasn’t let us down yet. Also, an earlier generation Symphony had a serious problem with uncompressed footage — it would actually screw up the luminance sampling, making greenscreen impossible on captured footage. Bastards.

Our path from offline to online is brand specific. FCP offlines get onlined in FCP. Avid offlines go to DS or Symphony. The less translation the better. 

And I will consider trading up to  Smoke/Fire if the price is right, especially if we can get that group discount...

DaveT


On 11/30/05 1:14 PM, "Scott Malkie" <ltc.vitc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> Well go ahead and try to outfit a suite, that is as versatile as a DS suite, with the console, VTR's, DA's, monitors, scopes, mixer, chair, phone etc. and has a workflow that allows you to output the same quality, in the same time for  - as you put it "A FIFTH THE COST OF DS", no sir, it won't happen.  Been there, ran the numbers and honestly, there is only about a 20-25% difference in price between other "Pro-sumer" systems and DS if you are fitting from the ground up.
>
> Ballparking here, and using list prices - 
>
> Assuming building a suite from the ground up:
> Huge Media Systems RAID:  $10000.  (4TB)
> VideoTek VTM-450E HD Scope: $17000. (HD/SD scope)
> Sony 27" HD CRT: $27000. ($1k an inch or so, before cards)
> Dual 23" Apple Cinema Displays: $3000. ($1.5k each)
> Mixer: $2000. (01V or equiv.)
> Console/Chair/Furnishings: $10000.  (Really can be as cheap or as pricey as you want here)
> Miscellaneous: $7000.  (Power strips, racks, cables, fancy keyboard, decent speakers)
>
> All that stays no matter what NLE goes in.
> Now for the rest:
>
> Apple Quad-Core G5: $3500.
> Blackmagic Decklink HD Pro PCIe card: $1500. (oh, and IT DOES 4:4:4)
> Apple Production Studio: $1300.
> Shake: $3000. 
> Tinder for Shake: $650.
> Sapphire: $1700
> Automatic Duck I/O bundle: $800.
> Photoshop: $600.
> After Effects: $1000.
> Anything I might have left out software-wise: $4000.  (codecs, speciality software like Traffic, etc.)
>
> Now, some quick math tells me that just the FCP side of the suite works out to be around $20,000.
>
> A DS, even before Tinder / Keylight / Photoshop is how much now?  
>
> Even if we're talking about building from the ground up, an ultra-tricked out FCP suite is easily at least 1/4 the cost of a DS suite. And, in the hands of the right operator, can do some things substantially easier than the DS.  (Underlining, H.264, Native HDV come to mind...)
>
> Of course, an all-in-one solution like the DS will always have speed and general ease-of-use advantages over a multiple software solution like the Apple Production Studio.  But is the small amount of time you save every day by not opening a different program worth the $100K+ more you pay for the DS?  Do you not think you'll use at least Photoshop and After Effects daily with a Symphony Nitris?  Talk about clunky - at least with 'round-tripping' I can use the same media - I can't imagine boucing stuff back and forth in uncompressed HD between a Symphony Nitris and After Effects. 
>
> Apple and their hardware vendors have constantly improved and innovated with FCP and Motion; Avid has taken a 15 year old interface and added 3 year old hardware to it.   Where's my SDI Mojo?  Where's my 4:4:4 Nitris? 
>
> Apologies for the length.  FCP is not a 'prosumer' NLE anymore.   Perhaps you mean to say 'Liquid.'
>
> - Scott Malkie