Re: Re:center/pivot was - XSI Montreal "Tips & Tricks" session, looking for presenters

["Tim Leydecker" <BauerOink(at)gmx.de>]

> Stating it´d be powerful is obviously not enough.

Still not the best explanation coming below but I´m a
bit in a hurry, will try to find some more reasons why
I´d think the full global implementation of working modes
would be beneficial and worth the (imaginable) hassle.

Check out modo 2.01 here:

http://www.luxology.com/whatismodo/model.aspx

There´s a couple of videos, one showing the "toolpipe".

Basically, similar to setting the toolpivot using [Alt] and
doing SRT transformations based on that in XSI (ideally...).

One could argue XSI does that allready, yep.

When comparing the functionality, one may notice that
modo is great at having the user intuitely set his orientation
axis for the tools, something XSI allows to do by selecting
an appropriate workingmode (global, local, ref) and maybe
an edge, point, face to orient the tools to. Nothing new here.

modo doesn´t let you have much of a numerical input for
exact manipulation there either, it´s also just a nice way
to eyeball things. As it is with XSI currently, exept you´re
in local mode, where you could enter values numerically
but would have to live with the limitations of the somewhat
fixed orientation of the tool´s pivot/center...

To get this to a new level, e.g. numerical input in whatever
mode you are, something the CAD world has since forever,
you´d really have to find a way of bringing together local mode
required to store animation data and the working mode required
to accurately create/change a position in a user-convenient way.
Basically, transfer any changes made into the local mode stored.

In a way, this has started to crawl into XSI allready, as there´s
allready options to display global values in the MCP. From a
user perspective, I don´t want to care about having to set my
mode back to local for setting a keyframe, this is extrawork that
adds up. I´d also like to make it as accurate as possible, btw.

Given Alias´ aquisition through autodesk, which is now pretty big
in both the architecture and CAD/CAM market, I expect it to be
only a matter of time, that tools available in the Autocad and VIZ
suites will get available in the more animation focused packages.

Cheers

tim



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Leydecker" <BauerOink(at)gmx.de>
To: <XSI(at)Softimage.COM>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Re:center/pivot was - XSI Montreal "Tips & Tricks" session, looking for 
presenters


> Hi Luc-Eric,
>
> thanks for the in-depth explanation. I won´t be
> able to post an according reply until later tonite
> or maybe even tommorow.
>
> I´ll go through everything you pointed out, to see
> if I can reasonably illustrate why I´d expect the
> MCP SRT axis text fields to reflect the coordinate
> system set in the Manipulation modes and why I´d
> expect to be able to nummerically enter values in
> those fields and - from a user perspective - would
> also expect this for the KP/L. Stating it´d be powerful
> is obviously not enough.
>
> Basically, I had expected a higher level of automation
> and conversion implemented to cope with the added
> ability to explicitely set a working mode, e.g. it being
> fully implemented throughout XSI to allow to simply hit [k].
>
> Cheers
>
> tim
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Luc-Eric Rousseau" <lucer(at)Softimage.COM>
> To: <XSI(at)Softimage.COM>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 7:45 AM
> Subject: RE: Re:center/pivot was - XSI Montreal "Tips & Tricks" session, looking 
> for presenters
>
>
> > If you want to use features of both the Transform Panel and the Keying Panel, it's 
> > totally fine, make a layout that has both on-screen.   The keying panel publishes 
> > the real object parameters to be keyed to the animator.  It's only 'by default' 
> > that 9 parameters from the local transforms property set are in there, normally in 
> > a rig they are not.  It could show only 'X' for translation, or only local 
> > rotation in 'Z'. There can be custom parameters driving the transform some other 
> > way.  It's a customizable panel for the TD to control what's animatable and what 
> > is not, and if local translation is there it's suposed to show that and not show 
> > some value made up by combining other parameters, unless it's a custom parameter 
> > setup that way by the TD.  The keying panel will have been setup to be EXACTLY 
> > what the animator wants and needs to look at and is not suposed to be 
> > re-interpreted by the application depending on some heuristics.
> >
> > If you're going to be playing around with various reference modes tools AND 
> > animating, you need to know exactly what low level parameters these tools change, 
> > because those parameters are the ones that need to be keyed and will be 
> > interpolated.  For example, try to animate that example of scale in COG mode when 
> > the center is off screen as it were.  It probably won't animate the way you think, 
> > if it works at all, it's not right method to animate that effect.  The math 
> > doesn't work that way. On top of this if you use the 'K' key in XSI mode to set 
> > the keys, since only the scale parameter is marked by the scale tool, only the 
> > local Scale will be keyed, but that scale operation modified  both Transform and 
> > Scale.  You need to know how the tool works and what fcurves are going to be 
> > generated.
> >
> > > If you say this can´t be expected to be supported you´re actually
> > > limiting any form of reliable animation
> >
> > It's useless to accuse me of this, I did not invent mathematics or rigging.  If 
> > you need to animate an object in relation to another point, you've got pivots, 
> > constrains, parenting, expressions, and other tools, it's basic rigging.  It works 
> > for everyone the same and no one is really being limited in terms of precise or 
> > reliable animation.  It's the very goal of rigging to setup thing so that the 
> > values and range of the parameters being animated have proper meaning, and it's in 
> > the keying panel that they are published.  When he opens the animation editor, the 
> > animator will then see the curves with the same values entered in the keying 
> > panel, animation interpolates the right things, and there are no suprises.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tim Leydecker
> > >
> > > Hi Luc-Eric,
> > >
> > > since you offer the option to work in different "switch modes" while
> > > modeling, even offer the option to animate the object pivot, the
> > > keying panel should of course allways display the correct values,
> > > e.g. show data that fit´s the mode selected to work in currently.
> > >
> > > Even if the keying panel is to be thought of as the left side of the
> > > animation editor, supposed to hold animation curves expressed
> > > in local space, this would only require a translation step between
> > > current mode and the resulting key in local space.
> > >
> > > If you say this can´t be expected to be supported you´re actually
> > > limiting any form of reliable animation as well as modeling
> > > that involves numerical input, either through script or direct userinput to
> > > local space therefore don´t really support the other spaces as workingmodes.
> > >
> > > You where relating to Maya´s channelbox in a previous mail, which
> > > allways shows the corresponding SRT values but doesn´t have more
> > > than local space or the option to directly animate the pivot,
> > > therefore aturally doesn´t need to have any conversion steps but is also just
> > > as limiting as it doesn´t allow to, let´s say plant the right
> > > foot onto a 0° angled plane, theleft foot an exact 3 units onto that same plane
> > > (one could do that by getting something out of curvelength, livepaint
> > > a curve onto the planesurface, attach foot (indirectly) to follow the
> > > curvepath and dial in a percentage). In XSI, one "should" be able
> > > to simply set the 30°plane the ref plane, snap to it, key, snap other
> > > foot to it, add +3 in the KP/L and key. Resulting curves could still
> > > be stored in local space, plotted in worldspace. See the power?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > tim
> >
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