Re: Coming back from Maya

["Steven Caron" <carons(at)gmail.com>]

below

On Feb 2, 2008 10:31 AM, Gene Crucean <emailgeneonthelist(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>reason 1
when i am transforming an object, i right click to get my transform options. i alt + right click to get my context menu. all the guys here i work with that use the qwerty setup ask me how i get that menu up.. problem is i can't help them cause i can't figure it out

Hehe, ctrl+alt. Same options.

ctrl is for snapping... thomas pointed out using alt to temp move the pivot with snapping. do you use ctrl for snapping?

 

reason 2
i have to use max too at work, it has an alt style navigation also.. hell you gotta hold ctrl+alt if you dont have a scroll wheel, or are using a tablet to zoom out. and let me tell you my thumb nail gets soooooo effing sore!!

I agree max is a bit weird. But it's closer to everything else than XSI.

you left out using alt all day long makes my thumb and nail sore.

reason 3
i always feel handicapped when i am using the alt key.. not because it is foreign but because when i try to rest my four other fingers on the home row keys my thumb looks like it has been chopped off. it feels awkward.. i dont like pressing that small key with the side of my finger, yes i use the alt key for other things but we are navigating soo much it makes my whole hand sore. (send that complaint back to reason 2). the space bar is different cause it is a lot bigger and in the middle of the keyboard. the alt key is under my palm when i am on the home row. which leads me to my other reason....

Opinion based. I feel perfectly fine.

my hand being sore is my issue, but is a vaild reason for not using qwerty.

 

reason 4
for the alt nav crew here at work, i see three different styles...
   -press alt with thumb, four fingers on home row area
   -press alt with index finger, NO fingers on the rest of the keyboard
   -press alt with thumb, but not the side of their thumb, causing them to hang their four fingers off the keyboard.

Yeah I've seen a few people do this stuff too. I'm option 1 btw. But, I do think this is of no importance to the topic. People use S and ZOP differently also. Maybe I misunderstood your point here. The issue isn't that they can hit a button faster or slower. It's that they know HOW to do what they need to do, instinctively. Mainly so they don't have to learn that stuff on top of a completely new application.

my point was that having your fingers off the keyboard isn't optimal. the keyboard has a home row for typing and the built in keymap puts you closest to that 'instinctive' usage of a keyboard. we type more than anything, so to me, that makes sense.

If you get an op, ask some of these people that use qwerty why they use it.

i know exactly why they use it, because maya or max is what they learned. not because they put research behind its optimal performance. my 'opinion' (everything keeps getting discredited as opinion) is that xsi's built in keymapping is designed for softimage, so i use it. it doesn't make my hand sore and makes the most sense to me. this is why i used softimage in the first place, the program made sense to me.

now you tell me why you use this method? from where i am standing it is a bogus idea, since everyone else is doing it we should too. some developer back in the day did it, the app got big, and everyone copied them. now these softwares are almost all owned by the same company. the same company that isn't innovating anymore.

I've already mentioned why I use it.

Does this aspect really need to keep progressing tho? I could see it progressing if there were new input methods, or something that radically changed the game... but we are still on keyboards and mice. Same style keyboards too. You know me Steve, I'm all about progression. If there were real reasons the xsi method was better I would switch to it. I just don't feel any (if any at all) benefits are worth losing consistency between all of the other apps.

If you feel it should keep progressing... lay some ideas on us.

 

again this might get discarded as opinion but, as it has been said before the alt key is 'alternate' so you use it to 'alternate' a tool. it is logical to me that when i use a tool that their is an option to use the tool differently. of course not all tools have this, sometimes just middle clicking gives an alternative usage of the tool, but at least there is room to build more features around an existing tool by using the alt key and not some arbitrary choice such as the 'd' key .which probably wasn't arbitrary, because a more logical way to alternate a tool is to use shift, ctrl, or alt but in the qwerty mapping 'alt' isn't a choice, so whats left?

Ciao bro

you forgot to comment on my quake association... 'wasd' for first person shooters is the norm. unless you are one of those people that use the arrow keys!? ;)

On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Steven Caron <carons(at)gmail.com> wrote:

"So, you guys really have no reason why you use it other than you are used to it? Honestly I just want to know WHY you guys use it."

i thought alan's first response had valid reasons...

alt key = modifier for your tools. you are right the keys are still available on the qwerty keymap. here are my long winded rant style reasons, since you asked.

reason 1
when i am transforming an object, i right click to get my transform options. i alt + right click to get my context menu. all the guys here i work with that use the qwerty setup ask me how i get that menu up.. problem is i can't help them cause i can't figure it out

reason 2
i have to use max too at work, it has an alt style navigation also.. hell you gotta hold ctrl+alt if you dont have a scroll wheel, or are using a tablet to zoom out. and let me tell you my thumb nail gets soooooo effing sore!!

reason 3
i always feel handicapped when i am using the alt key.. not because it is foreign but because when i try to rest my four other fingers on the home row keys my thumb looks like it has been chopped off. it feels awkward.. i dont like pressing that small key with the side of my finger, yes i use the alt key for other things but we are navigating soo much it makes my whole hand sore. (send that complaint back to reason 2). the space bar is different cause it is a lot bigger and in the middle of the keyboard. the alt key is under my palm when i am on the home row. which leads me to my other reason....

reason 4
for the alt nav crew here at work, i see three different styles...
   -press alt with thumb, four fingers on home row area
   -press alt with index finger, NO fingers on the rest of the keyboard
   -press alt with thumb, but not the side of their thumb, causing them to hang their four fingers off the keyboard.

now you tell me why you use this method? from where i am standing it is a bogus idea, since everyone else is doing it we should too. some developer back in the day did it, the app got big, and everyone copied them. now these softwares are almost all owned by the same company. the same company that isn't innovating anymore.

luv u gene ;)

ps besides the most important reason is... the 's' key for navigation puts my hands closest to 'wasd' for the daily quake games we play!

On Feb 1, 2008 11:08 AM, Gene Crucean <emailgeneonthelist(at)gmail.com> wrote:

So, you guys really have no reason why you use it other than you are used to it? Honestly I just want to know WHY you guys use it.

Joey, your entire post was made up of personal preferences and what you are used to. Not to mention got pretty off topic. I appreciate you taking your time though.

>Is it really worth forcing all of their current users conform to a setup that most are not comfortable with?

I think in the long run... yes. But you see, you just touched on a double edged sword and contradicted yourself in the same post. You ask if it's worth it to conform most current users, but then say "Does the 1 second required to move a finger across the keyboard really cut into your productivity?" Hmm interesting.

So here is another branch off of this topic... user base. Do you want to make the small XSI user base conform? Or make the entire rest of the industry conform? The numbers speak for themselves. Just sayin.

C'mon Kim, you can do better than that. Hotkeys have nothing to do with what you are saying. If we were talking about a hotbox, then I would agree.

Bernard, I agree. But that's a preference again with no meat. I like meat and potatoes.

On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Juan Brockhaus <juanb(at)the-mill.com> wrote:

I actually prefer vanilla ice cream to chocolate.
just my 2 cents.

Juan

Ponthieux, Joey wrote:
> You asked.....
>
> 1. The XSI interaction model, as a whole, is far better for XSI than
> attempting to apply  someone else's interaction model on top of XSI.
>
> 2. After just barely 5 years on Soft3D, for nearly 8 years I tried to
> shake ZOP on Maya, I just couldn't do it. The ALT-Key navigation system
> on Maya just didn't cut it. It just wasn't natural. Most importantly
> their system made it very difficult on people with wheel mice, zoom and
> orbit were always a a hairs hit away from being right on cue when you
> pressed the buttons, too many different mouse button combinations for
> something that should be really simple, and they don't make mice the way
> the used to(sans wheel), which is what they designed the nav keys for in
> Maya back in 96 on SGI. Without even considering the 1-2 years overlap
> where I was using Soft3D and Maya simultaneously, six years later I was
> still habitually, and erroneously,  hit ZOP in Maya for navigation. I
> took that as a signal that the ALT key just wasn't as comfortable a fit.
> It wasn't until Maya ended up  on Windows did they correct a major flaw
> with  the  ALT mouse worklfow where they assigned dolly to  ALT-RMB.
> They couldn't do this on SGI, this was bound to a special XWindows
> command within Irix. But by the time I moved to PC about 3 years ago,
> Maya on Win vs XSI on Win.....well ....you be the judge of that.
>
> 3. The ALT Nav system on Maya also limited finer control, the mouse
> buttons were taken up with Pan, Dolly, Orbit. Zoom in Maya was embedded
> into the interface for the Camera's Attributes under Focal Length. In
> XSI it is exposed under Z. It was an extra step any time you wanted to
> limit Orbit to X, Y, or Z, slow Dolly vs Fast Dolly, etc. Roll was two
> tiers down under the viewport View command. On XSI, its just one key
> press, L.
>
> 4. For selections Spacebar,T,E,U is a lot more efficient than Q and a
> visual hunt for the right Component icon. You could assign any of these
> to keys which I did, but you shouldn't have to do this.
>
> 5. For transforms, there is Maya's WER(move,rotate,scale) and Soft's
> VCX(move, rotate scale). I always liked the fact that Space(select) was
> closer to VCX in Soft. In Maya it was nerve wracking to no absolute end
> why the heck did they assign Scale to R? Duh?
>
> 6. Hotbox and Marking menus? What can I say? Theyre both wonderful and a
> real headache at the same time. Theyre fast and elegant, but there's
> nothing more absolutely frustrating than to use a stroke on the HotBox
> because you used it as a Marking menu, and now your current view has
> disappeared because it been replaced with a new view. Admittedly the
> marking menus are faster, but only if your scene is simple and not as
> cluttered, if you have a real heavy scene, marking menus can be a real pain.
>
> 7. Manipulators, that was new to 3D, and quite revolutionary. But just
> about every app implements that now, it's no longer an issue.
>
> 8. Middle Click. Absolutely nothing like it Maya's arsenal. Not even the
> nonsacred tool(Y) or repeat key(G) come close.
>
> These are just interaction issues. I set up Max to behave like Soft
> once, got it pretty close.  It was impossible to reengineer Maya's
> interface close enough to Soft to make it worthwhile. You could do this
> with Max. Frankly I don't buy the myth that Soft3D's mindset is old or
> out of date. It was good, clean, efficient, and didn't place things in
> conflict with each other. It exposed almost everything you needed for
> selection and navigation right on the keyboard. If that interaction
> model is bad, then I'll take bad.
>
> Joey Ponthieux
> NCI Information Systems Inc.
> NASA Langley Research Center
> ____________________________________________________________
> Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and
> do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.
>
>
>
> Gene Crucean wrote:
>> Can I ask why you old school Soft users think the native interaction
>> model is better than every other piece of software out there that all
>> relatively mimics the same qwerty setup?
>>
>> I'm looking for solid reasons why it's /better/. Is it faster because
>> you guys are so hardcore that you don't even use a mouse... therefore
>> freeing up your right hand for O,P usage? ;)
>>
>> I'm calling you guys out. XSI dragging along the old Soft mindset just
>> further alienates potential users from hopping on board. IMO, SI would
>> be better off in the long run if in V7 they just dropped it and kept
>> the qwerty setup as default. Maybe drop it completely from the
>> software but offer the keymap as a download from the site... at least
>> until the "old dogs" retire.
>>
>>
>> $0.02 ching ching
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Julien Stiegler
>> <julien.stiegler(at)free.fr <mailto:julien.stiegler(at)free.fr>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hey eric,
>>
>>     it's a great initiative to host tested/working/quality scripts and
>>     plugins on
>>     your site.
>>     What about contacting ALL the xsi addons authors and ask them the
>>     permissions to
>>     host it on your site ?
>>     I have a good collection of them but the authors still need to be
>>     contacted for
>>     permissions ....
>>
>>     regards
>>
>>     Selon Eric Thivierge <eric(at)xsidatabase.com
>>     <mailto:eric(at)xsidatabase.com>>:
>>
>>     > Well Kim,
>>     >
>>     > It's a community based site. I don't script too well myself so it's
>>     > pretty much up to the others on the list and in the community to put
>>     > some things on the site. The site is for hosting the files of
>>     various
>>     > resources to get rid of the horrible "File not found" errors. So I
>>     > counter your comment with, "Shouldn't YOU put some scripts in
>>     it?" :)
>>     >
>>     > Cheers Kim. Hope all is well.
>>     >
>>     > Thanks,
>>     >
>>     > Eric Thivierge, XSI Database Admin
>>     > www.xsidatabase.com <http://www.xsidatabase.com>
>>     > eric(at)xsidatabase.com <mailto:eric(at)xsidatabase.com>
>>     > Forum Username: EricTRocks
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > kim aldis wrote:
>>     > > Shouldn't you put some scripts into it? ;-)
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > >> -----Original Message-----
>>     > >> From: owner-xsi(at)Softimage.COM
>>     <mailto:owner-xsi(at)Softimage.COM> [mailto:owner-xsi(at)Softimage.COM
>>     <mailto:owner-xsi(at)Softimage.COM>] On
>>     > >> Behalf Of Eric Thivierge
>>     > >> Sent: 01 February 2008 03:32
>>     > >> To: XSI(at)Softimage.COM <mailto:XSI(at)Softimage.COM>
>>     > >> Subject: Re: Coming back from Maya
>>     > >>
>>     > >> Right on Marcus! Don't forget we have a new scripts section
>>     as well.
>>     > >>
>>     > >>
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > > ---
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>>
>>     --
>>     Julien Stiegler
>>     Réalisation de film d'animation, vidéo interactive,
>>     pré-production, post-prodution.
>>     http://animatic.no-ip.com/cv.html
>>
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